For my part, I don’t want the Web to be one community. I’m fine with it being multiple communities that occasionally intersect: the more, the merrier!
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Here’s an interaction I never want to see:
- Motivated newcomer: I just discovered blogging!! I’m so excited about it, I want to share my grandma’s recipes, I started a substack because it was really easy
- Indie web ethics police: whoa there what the FUCK
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Color me surprised! After reading your blogpost last year, I thought you had sworn them off completely.
I don’t know for sure if anything would fit the bill, but for what it’s worth, here’s where we discussed some options on a previous thread: What’s with “Discuss on Mastodon”?
Anyway, thanks for the interest, and I’ll make a note to ping you when that blogpost about comments goes up.
Certainly.
Responding to a reply in the other thread:
@elementaljuices Thank you, I think.
Further reading, somewhat related:
Yesterday my post got linked in this new post by Bix Frankonis: ‘Quite Achievable’ For Whom?
That post is a response to another post that’s been making the rounds, A Website To End All Websites, which is a pretty standard indie web manifesto in some respects, but Bix’s response reminded me of some of my thoughts about the Blogging in the Ruins post, in terms of pointing out some audience issues.
Pretty much everything leading up to this bit in the conclusion is gold, so far as the analysis is concerned. It falls apart for me here at the end, principally due to this blinkered idea of what kind of person might consider the above [generating your own social network on ActivityPub and ATProto] to be “quite achievable.”
And to reiterate, I’m very much on Team Quit Talking Up Bluesky/ATProto As If It Represents An Escape From Tech Overlords.
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I can see how you would have gotten that impression! I have sworn off comments sections completely, but that’s based on the limitations of present day tech. If someone were to come along and develop a free / inexpensive, easy to set up third-party commenting system for static websites that is truly private (IP addresses anonymized on their end, no forced sign-up or sign in for anyone who wants to leave a comment, no tracking), that also has robust spam protection / moderation features, I’d be all over it. I can deal with reply guys and botsplainers if I can block or mute them. The pressure to write posts that get people talking would still be there, but for me anyway, that pressure can sometimes lead to better writing.
Cusdis kind of does what I need it to do, but it doesn’t have any spam protection, so I’ll never use it. I don’t want to have to manually moderate endless LLM-generated botspam for the sake of the handful of legitimate people or so who’d be commenting.
I looked at integrating Mastodon comments into my blog, but I don’t really like the available solutions from a privacy perspective. If someone wants to keep their Mastodon activity on Mastodon, I think that’s their right; no one should have to worry about their Mastodon PFP and username appearing on someone else’s personal website, simply because they chimed in on a post on Mastodon. I’m fine with sending visitors to Mastodon (or Bluesky) from my blog if they want to leave a comment on what I’ve written over there.
Yeah, I have a problem with this as well. I’ve mentioned my husband here previously; he posts on Substack because it’s super easy for him, it connects him with other authors, and it gives him the reach he’s looking for. Does it suck that Substack gives a platform to Nazis and is backed by one of the most evil men in Silicon Valley? Yes, very much so – but I don’t see why we need to attack ordinary people who use the platform simply because it’s the best option for them.
I have no issue with people who refuse to write on Substack themselves if it bothers them, but I don’t understand why some anti-Substack folks feel the need to police the actions of others or write them off as “Nazis” without any evidence or context. It’s OK to inform people about the problems associated with Substack, IMO (because some people genuinely don’t know and are surprised / disgusted once they learn more about it – I ended up being one of those people), but the personal attacks so often lobbed at Substack users in the independent web community and the Fediverse is not OK.
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If you want an alternative to Pika and Bear, take a look at my blogging product Pagecord.
Just about to launch custom CSS which I’m hoping attracts a new audience, I wrote about it on my blog (running on Pagecord, of course!)
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This is true… In the end, it’s a lot easier to stop trolls on the indie web. But I think that my final line may have given the wrong idea about my biggest concern. My concerns aren’t just in bullies coming to the indie web (though that is a concern), but also in the idea that the indie web will become a market to monetize and exploit. This will, in turn, water down the subculture into nothingness. It’s just a collection of aesthetics (very likely “old web” aesthetics). As a better point of comparison, think about how “punk” became watered down over time, stripped of its political ethos in the mainstream…
Who says that, once things get worse once, they can’t get worse again? I was very active in fandom during that time, and I assure you, things got markedly worse. Normies with nothing better to do came into fandom spaces, then started getting annoyed at people for doing basic fandom behavior. “Ew, the weirdos in the space for weirdos is acting… WEIRD!!!”-type vibe. Nothing illustrates this better than the fact that I saw the girl who used to ruthlessly bully me in middle school for liking anime getting into MHA fandom.
tbh just like the indie web i dont really see fandom as a single community because things are very very different depending on what fandom youre in. and even for a single piece of media there are usually different groups within it so whether fandom got “worse” or not in 2020 really depends on your circle
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That’s not something to fear in my mind because that’s already the case to begin with. There are already web service providers who operate as a business. Not just the little ones like Pagecord, but also the big ones like Blogger (owned by Google), which came up on here recently, and Wordpress (owned by a billionaire). I’ve even seen someone say that using Squarespace counts as indie web as long as you rent your domain name. And of course there’s domain name registrars themselves, who are paid-only and don’t give out anything for free. So that’s already the situation we’re in.
Trying to envision a worst case scenario, I suppose we could anticipate that a sudden increase in demand might embolden service providers to jack up their prices. I don’t know how to evaluate the likelihood of that.
As for watering down the subculture… I think the indie web as a social phenomenon is already quite fragmented, for better or for worse. I even got a comment on my post from someone who had never heard of the indie web being defined by domain names before.
Unfortunately I think what this illustrates is that it’s important not to think of fandoms in terms of moral affiliation or ideology. At the end of the day, being a fan is just about feeling strongly about stuff. Doesn’t guarantee that they’ll treat others right.
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This topic basically comes up every 2 weeks in the melonland forum lol. I’ve always felt a bit apathetic towards talks about how onboard more people into the ‘Indie Web’, especially when phrased as a replacement for ‘’‘corporate social media’‘’, because in my eyes the 2 are just incomparable.
Your website is your home. You will not be adding your voice into an endless conversation, you are curating a space meant for others to sit and experience for a while, not chew and spit out. To abstain from social media and own a website is already fundamentally changing how you interact with the internet, and some people aren’t looking for that. Some people just want twitter without the assholes.
It is certainly a bit frustrating to see endless posts online lamenting the state of their web from our side, and I do think that it is a worthy endeavour to reevaluate whether the mechanisms of socmed serve us in any way anymore. But that is something that takes time and effort and commitment, and not everyone has that privilege.
I want to commend your last paragraph on the scope of everyone, because it’s something I feel like is always left out of the conversation. It’s a privilege to have a computer, to have fast internet connection and access to resources online, to be able to learn how to build a website for no other reason than personal enjoyment. I’m privileged enough that my livelihood and connection to friends isn’t tied to social media. In trying to come up with an ethos so tied to the idea of fighting the Big Guys it’s easy to lose sight of who you’re fighting for.
Honestly the core conflict to me is the idea of web accessibility. On one hand if we’re saying the Indie Web is for everyone, I think it’s non negotiable that you need to consider people who experience the internet exclusively on their phone, use screen readers etc. At the same time, your website is your home and it’s up to you who you let in. My website isn’t optimised for slower internet speeds, it’s barely responsive! My website doesn’t fit in the Indie Web, my website isn’t for everyone.
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Do tell. Can you link some of the threads?
Thank you. I’m glad to have found some likeminded folks on that front.
Hmm. That can be another point of tension, yeah.
For what it’s worth, I don’t connect as much with metaphors about personal websites as physical places, which also goes for calling them a home, but I might have to get into that another time because I need to head out now.
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Hm just glancing at the Life on the Web topic the top discussion is on reasons for staying on the small web. Specific ones I remember is this one asking people to compare their experience with the Indie Web vs socmed, and speculating on the web becoming less centralised. This is the closest one I can recall to being about onboarding and the Indie Web ethos. Also this one discussing the Indie Web as a movement vs an aesthetic?
Admittedly I don’t browse this forum as much, mainly because the layout hurts my eyes lol.
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@st4rdr34mz I see. Thank you. And I get what you mean about the layout – fortunately at least it’s much more toned down in the mobile version.
Looks like the thread about getting the word out was actually started by our very own @xandra! Quoting from there:
coming up on two years within the personal web/yesterweb/web revival space, i’m curious to know how folks found melonland in comparison and, to that end, how do we best spread the word about building a personal website and/or participating in a non-social media web?
For what it’s worth, I ended up creating my website because of enchantedsleeper’s Small Web September event launched in 2024, which I’d imagine is not the most common story around here. From reading a little on Melonland and other places, it seems like there’s been a surprising amount of people coming from Youtube, of all things.
Regarding that movement vs aesthetic link… this is getting tangential, but I think it’s kind of funny that HN commenters reacted with a bunch of debate about the aesthetic merits of the design. Same thing happened as part of their reception of Henry’s A Website to End All Websites.
In some respects I could understand interpreting what Melon calls the “web revival” as essentially an aesthetic, given the proliferation of certain design choices – and I did see one poster referring to it as “really more of an artistic movement.” So there’s people who do look at it that way. Personally, though, I find that outlook a lot less interesting. Making stuff can be fun, but I’m not here to do an art project. I want to have conversations about what we’re actually supposed to do about the predatory web.
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Colour me surprised because I think the complete opposite! But maybe that’s because my definition of an “artistic movement” is pretty wide. IMO artistic movements have always influenced/been influenced by the political and social movements around it. Even just by adopting 90s/Web 1.0 aesthetics like Melon has they are rejecting the corporate web by subverting the polished and monotonous look associated with it.
An art project can still be part of a conversation, and likewise I don’t find it difficult to consider your essay as part of an art movement. Writing is art, after all. Especially if you are writing to convince someone!
So I think adopting this mindset of web making as art making beyond just visual aesthetics can be liberating, or it was for me at least, because it can open you up to consider how you want to define your web experience. To me, that’s ultimately what your forced to do when you’re trying to escape the exploitative practices of socmed, right?
I do agree though, defining the “web revival” through just visual aesthetics is a stifling thing. I always roll my eyes a little at the “You can make your website look any way you want versus the BORING SOULLESS look of corporate web” argument because, well, not everyone expresses themselves visually?
…Sorry to make your tangent even more tangential!
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The things you’ve mentioned have always been a risk, and independent sites getting swallowed up by giants also already happened in the past. The question is whether people let it happen or not.
Regarding fandom, I’m sorry but “my bully joined a fandom” or weird vibes are nothing new. Again, I feel like they’re more noticeable due to people gathering in larger spaces where they’re more in contact with each other. That said, I don’t want to touch stuff about fandom morality these days, not even if you paid me.
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Good point. No disrespect to the political salience of art intended.
Thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment. (Even if you meant it as just a description, lol)
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i think the the independent web isn’t one whole community, per se, but it’s more like a common denominator between different communities. like us, melonland, and the indieweb aren’t one specific community. sure, we may have things in common, but we’re all different slices of the same pie, if that makes sense. if there is a common ethos between the communities, then we’re trying to solve the same problems, but that doesn’t mean we’re all in the same boat. it truly depends on how a community is defined, whether through audience, common ideals, morals, and beliefs, or something else.
is there a specific ethos? depends on the space you’re in, but the beauty of the independent web is that it’s independent, there’s no one body governing how independent websites could, would, and should be. at the end of the day, we’re separate from corporate websites and that’s all of what we have in common. some of us have personal websites, some of us have common ethos with other spaces of the independent web, and others may have specific sites where they detail their manifestos. at the end of the day, there is no one set of core beliefs within the indie web. may independent communities within the indie web have set beliefs? definitely, look at individuals within these communities! does the indie web itself foster those beliefs? no, not necessarily.
i hope this conveys my thoughts on the indie web and the ethos of its communities!
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Even that is up in the air here. One of the patterns I talked about in my post is the pattern of people extending the concept of the indie web to corporate sites such as Wordpress, Tumblr, Blogger, Medium, and Bluesky. Here are some specific examples:
- The IndieWeb for Everyone by Max Böck: “Mastodon, Ghost, Tumblr, micro.blog and others are working hard on that frontier”
- The IndieWeb Movement by Jamie Tanna: “With this domain, you can point it to Medium, Tumblr, or your own site. But the constant there is that it’ll sit under your domain”
- Welcome to the web we lost by Sacha Judd: “Don’t settle for corporate landlords who don’t care. […] Embrace the new tools – Bluesky”
- Bonus: The small web is beautiful by Ben Hoyt naming Hacker News of all things as a “small website,” on account of its pages being literally small in file size
I don’t precisely agree with these perspectives, but I’m also not entirely on board with contrasting “indie web” with “corporate websites” because at the end of the day, there’s no version of the indie web that doesn’t involve interfacing with corporations at some stage of the process.
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that makes sense and i appreciate you pointing out what i missed! what i mean is that while we could use corporate frameworks and such, the websites were purposefully cultivated by someone who had a passion! sure, it could be hosted by a corporation, or the domain name could be, but the website itself is completely operated by the individual operating it. i think the websites by individuals, for individuals, are what make the independent web. of course, they can intersect at some points, but i think passion and personality is the difference between independent and corporate.
i understand your points and the difficulty of… well, whether there’s even an indie web since corporations will always be involved within the process to some capacity. i probably define it literally as created and maintained independently, not necessarily how it interacts with corporate websites for its creation, so i failed to take that intersection into account. i don’t think a purely indie website will ever exist, but i think in this climate, the creator is the mastermind behind something carefully crafted by a company for public consumption or a messy but passionate display of one person’s personality for their own enjoyment.
i just wanted to add my two cents and add to the conversation from my perspective. we definitely have differing opinions on the topic, which is very interesting to encounter and discuss! partially, the beauty of the internet is that whether a website is corporate or indie, people can connect to each other for conversations like this!
IMO, Hacker News is no more indie web than Reddit. It’s run by billionaire Paul Graham’s company, Y Combinator, and the prevailing groupthink is the reason I joke about a typical HN commenter being a College Republican who majored in computer science.
And we’ll see how quickly Jay Graber changes her tune to Ave Caesar once Bain Capital starts demanding a return on their $700M investment in Bluesky.
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Thank you.
Hmm. According to which version of independence? There’s two different kinds I talked about at the original post.
Exactly why I was so bewildered to see that one put forward as an example.
Oh shoot, I missed the news about that. The most recent round I’d seen was the $15 million from investors such as Blockchain Capital, but I ran a web search on Bain Capital to check, and sure enough… $700 million more thrown at the hellhole factory.