If you've signed up for Bluesky, you've signed up for offloadable moderation.

So yes actually, I do! I think it is a blurry line; if I occasionally lurk in a forum just to see whats going on but don’t contribute or even browse regularly, I do not consider myself a ‘user’ of that platform. But for something like YouTube, I am beholden to its algorithm, I engage with content via likes/views/shares, if there is some sort of site-wide issue (like adpocalypse a few- sorry, almost 8 years ago, jesus christ) I will probably hear about it. In that way I consider myself a user of youtube because the viewer is just as important to the ecosystem as the creator.

If I am trying to watch a video extralegally and find it on Dailymotion or Vimeo, I do not consider myself a user of those sites, because I do not engage with them in remotely the same ways. Does that make sense? Where do you draw the line?

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It does but personally I think the “social” part of social media is the important one. And so to me, consuming content on YouTube carries no social meaning. I’m not interacting with anyone in a direct way and I’m just passively consuming content someone has created.

It’s more like a creators platform than a social media platform. But YouTube is an interesting product in the context of this discussion.

Interesting bit of nuance that I didn’t detect when I inserted an opinion yesterday: “the act of use” versus “being considered a user”.

Debating what constitutes use is different to me than the question of being considered a user, which is what I had commented on yesterday.

To wit, I considered myself a user of Facebook, Instagram and Threads until I deleted those accounts. However, I did not feel that I was using any of those platforms.

FWIW, I don’t fully agree with the notion that there’s an inherent difference with something like YouTube or TikTok. If I don’t have a Google account, but I view videos on YouTube, I’d consider myself using the platform, but not a user of the platform. This is likely because I associate “user” with being a defined, registered actor. This is probably too narrow of a scope. What’s more, even without an account, I bet that the larger players in these spaces can identify most people via a collection of data points they’re able to collect.

Anyway, apologies for continuing to inject my meanderings.

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I only have a passing familarity with his work as of yet, but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed what little that I have been exposed to. Was there a particular book that you had in mind?

I would really love to read The Dawn of Everything. It seems to match up well with a lot of other works that I appreciate, like this one. The archeological evidence looks similar too! I am in the middle of reading Lifehouse: Taking Care of Ourselves in a World on Fire right now. Envisioning Real Utopias and Bolo’bolo are next on my reading list…But I digress…

The following will be more topic-specific, even though I feel that this will probably be reiterating a lot of the wonderful points that everyone has already made. I will speak broadly, touching upon many of the ideas expressed within this thread, using this quotation as the launch pad…

Perhaps a more fundamental issue is that there is a divison into two “classes” of people? There is a tension within that polarity that leads to all sorts of problems. I mentioned this dynamic on the forum that I had mentioned previously:

Yup, that is pretty much what drives the repeating pattern of unsustainable growth:

  1. Make an online community
  2. Let the community grow into something meaningful
  3. Monetize the “content” that they have created (through advertising, subscriptions, selling off private data, etc.)
  4. Use progressively more predatory practices to increase “profit” so that “shareholders” can continually get a “return on investment”

Internet services usually centralize around “company-owned” servers that can hold everyone’s data hostage if the “owners” want to “cash out”. Unless there is an easy way to back up data and use it elsewhere after one deletes their account (i.e.: portability and interoperability), that kind of lock-in is unavoidable.

The ability to host your data on your own computer is one of the appeals of “peer-to-peer” systems. Things like Solid (i.e.: servers where individuals control who or what has access to their data) seem to be an intermediary between those two extremes (“fully centralized” vs. “fully decentralized”).

There is a catch-22 here as well: Most “users” would probably say that step 3 is where it starts to fall apart, whereas most “owners” would probably say that it is necessary in order to handle the rising costs of running the infrastructure for a community that is constantly growing (whether that be the number of accounts there are, the amount of data that they generate, or some combination of both). The more that one uses a system, the more that must be done to maintain it.

I wonder if there are any crowdfunded websites whose operation and costs are completely transparent and upfront. For example: “Until we find a way to make it free, running the servers for this number of accounts each month costs [blank], so each person has to pay [blank], a fraction of that amount, to keep their account. Moderation consists of [blank] tasks, so every account has to do [blank] every week to have the ability to post.” The first one is easy to manage because it scales with the number of accounts / amount of data. The second one is more variable and tricky, especially if there are specialized roles and/or no code of ethics that people take seriously.

Ultimately, it comes down to how people choose to interact with one another. The technologies and procedures are just an extension of that.

Good ol’ platform decay. Cory Doctorow has noted the potential for it in the case of Bluesky. He has also stated his hesitation to join stems from the fact that he cannot easily take his data and social connections with him in the event that he wants to leave if it becomes inhospitable to him (i.e.: lock-in). And that is despite trusting many of the people who created it.

As you’ve already astutely pointed out, group #2 of Bluesky is outsourcing moderation to group #1. That is not surprising, moderation is incredibly difficult and thankless work…and nigh impossible to accomplish without causing upset towards someone, anyone. Are there ways of uniting the two groups by making group #2 into group #1 (e.g.: consensus decision-making meetings with all community members, regular rotating leadership roles out of that same pool of members, etc.)? How are different voices excluded from the dialogue and why?

The “venture capital funding” and plans to roll out “subscriptions” could be foreshadowing that it may fall prey to the same temptations of cannibalizing the very thing that makes it “valuable”: its community. Will it be another series of ruinous compromises until it is a shrivelled husk that no longer reflects the “values” that formed it? It seems likely…Unless their search for “new business models” includes cooperatives that transition away from the idea of centralized “ownership,” and eventually, from the concept of “ownership” all together, each in service to all. These communication systems are embedded within larger social constructs; the creation and use of all technology is also a reflection of them to some extent. I am again reminded of a quote by Mai Ishikawa Sutton, co-author of The DWeb Principles:

…We can’t just replace the platforms and protocols we have today with other purely profit-driven companies that can only call their product “decentralized” because the technology functions in a more distributed manner. For decentralization to be a remotely revolutionary concept, we need to question the internal logic of the tech industry itself - how people are incentivized to build things, how people are treated in the process, and how the relationships and systems we operate with are controlled. How does decentralization redistribute power? That’s the fundamental question.

So, how does one merge groups #1 and #2 in a way that actually collapses the hierarchy rather than perpetuates it, especially when people sometimes fight tooth-and-nail to keep a status quo going under the mistaken belief that they personally “benefit” from it? At their core, the issues are both psychological and sociological, not necessarily technological. But again, I can only speak generally…

Both our intentions and the means by which we accomplish them are important. If it truly is about genuine communication, then reach, influence, popularity, etc. no longer matter. Moderation at scale is not necessary if I am speaking with a relatively small group that actually wants to dialogue together in good faith. In fact, no technology whatsoever is needed if those conversations are face-to-face and we speak with a common language.

I think it is possible to consistently retain that level of honesty and integrity in the context of mass collaboration over computer networks, and we will eventually get there, collectively speaking. But I also think that it begins with individual changes in how people perceive and interact with one another, and that we will directly face some of the most difficult challenges within human experience in the process of doing so. There are no “easy answers”. Carefully trying to guide a community in a constructive way can make a significant impact on a group, but it can only do so much. Only Agapic Love, a sincere sense of radical compassion and restorative justice that is continually lived out in both principle and in practice by every individual, can solve the paradox of tolerance. A victim mentality and dark triad characteristics that constantly feed off each other make it hard to overcome the alienation that is so prevalent. People sometimes lash out when they feel vulnerable, and so much of society is literally structured in ways to make people sociopathic or insane. I do not use those terms lightly either…

I could give some examples of the complexity of that in relation to online spaces, but honestly, I am bit hesitant to broach the topic too deeply. It is like doing shadow work on the collective unconscious…If one has any amount of empathy and compassion, the intensity of the pain can be soul-crushing. We have to be well-integrated and have a coherence that transcends the darkness of the world

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The Democracy Project: A History, a Crisis, a Movement. It has some discussion of consensus finding that I think you might appreciate.

This pattern applies when there are shareholders/investors in the first place, but I think it’s worth pointing out that platforms and online communities don’t have to structure their funding this way.

Sort of, yes. Pillowfort has a public progress bar on their funding budget for the month, broken down by category of expense. If you’d like to see more granular numbers, you could also look at Cohost, although if you look closely at the numbers themselves then you might understand why they went out of business.

I don’t know about collapsing it entirely, but I think a user-funded business model is a decent start. You might also look at how Dreamwidth has attempted to follow their guiding principle of community review.

Oooo that looks good. Thanks for the recommendation! That Lifehouse book that I mentioned describes Occupy Sandy at some length, so this would probably complement it well. I need to look more deeply into how the various “Occupy” movements implemented mutual aid.

I tend to look at all of this in psychological and sociological ways rather than in technical or financial terms. Speaking very generally, when it comes to working in groups of any kind, there are two challenges that seem prevalent to me:

  1. Encouraging people to take self-initiative when it comes to doing important tasks (“do-ocracy”)

People have a tendency to not do anything when it is assumed that others are already taking care of it (“diffusion of responsibility”). Excluding cases of purposeful sabotage, there may also be “free-rider” problems where shared resources become degraded because some people may use them without contributing to their maintenance.

…To use an analogy, do we have to hire a janitor if everyone picks up after themselves? Sometimes people even have the nerve to look down on janitors despite the critical role that they play in making spaces relatively safe and comfortable! (A form of “class discrimination”?)

Therefore, at it’s core, I would say that this type of “self-organization” does not usually occur unless every individual has a strong sense of belonging and there is camaraderie amongst the group as a whole (“social cohesion”, or to use the economics term, “social capital”).

  1. Communication breakdowns that lead to the blocking of a consensus or coming to a false consensus

People may not voice their concerns within the context of a group. For example, it might be out of fear of being judged harshly for holding an unpopular opinion (“groupthink”), or assumptions might be made about what everyone else desires (“the Abilene paradox”). People might also be repeatedly “punished” or “rewarded” for holding a particular viewpoint until all nuance is lost (“purity spiral”).

At that point, it helps to focus in on specific behaviors (“direct action”), and have methods that help to resolve any gridlocks by analyzing the impact of those actions and hashing out a path forward together (e.g.: “The N-Street Consensus Method”).

In my opinion, there are only a couple of models of social organization that can account for these aspects and be applied with any depth (e.g.: Sociocracy and Ostrom’s Design Principles). Fusing these together with some complementary method of resolving conflict (e.g.: Restorative Circles) seems like a way to make communities that are sustainable and actually enjoyable for everyone to be a part of.

Yes, exactly! This was my point about Bluesky “seeking other business models”.

That’s fair. I was familiar with a little bit of the CoHost situation, not as much with Dreamwidth or Pillowfort. Very insightful points! Thank you for sharing them.

I had mentioned something similar to this in one of the previous links. I will quote a few parts of it here:

Print on demand, online audio distribution, and self-publishing frequently serve a function that is similar to that of a self-hosted website: an attempt to escape the confines of the “corporate”. The same is true for things like indie game development.

All of these fields / interests could be connected together into a cooperative system where they are mutually supportive. For example, notice that video games are interactive experiences filled with art, music, and writing united by programming. And much of it uses technology that should follow principles like Free Software and Permacomputing.

Most “corporate culture” is rigidly hierarchical, with a relatively small “elite” that “manage” a huge number of “worker roles”. The thing that makes a union powerful is that, when the majority of people within those “worker roles” are on the same page, they can redirect the operation of the “company” as a whole. This is because that small “elite” is literally incapable of doing all of that work alone. We don’t need “leaders”. We need self-responsibility on part of every individual that is directed towards collective harmony.

Rather than use the power that comes from organization to try to “bargain” for safer working environments, fair distribution of effort and resources, and so on, it could be used to collapse the hierarchy completely by voluntarily reorganizing under a different structure that is more likely to provide those necessities, one that we build ourselves.

All of the “intellectual property” (including the step-by-step processes by which it is made!) should be “owned” by everyone who helped to create it. And further, we need direct collaboration between “creatives” and “audiences” until they are both one and the same. Maybe we could accomplish this with a cooperatively-owned crowdfunding platform (something like Comradery) crossed with a peer-to-peer network to share everything that we create, which includes guides on how to DIY all of it.

The use of “money” (and all of the manipulations and abuses associated with its accumulation) will start to fall away the more that each is self-sufficient and connected together by mutual aid. […] All of this is a peaceful process. Nothing has to be destroyed, only wholly transformed. It can be done towards everyone’s benefit as well…

Some time ago, I was working on an article about video game addiction and workplace abuse. There are many people working within game development that are being abused terribly, and games are being made with manipulative techniques used to hold people’s attention captive.

These issues highlight the necessity of projects like those mentioned above. The making of video games can also be so much more than simply “entertainment” because the attainment of useful knowledge and skills can be “gamified”.

…Now apply this same kind of approach across all aspects of society, not just entertainment/education, but especially those connected to essential needs (e.g.: water, food, shelter, energy, etc.). All organizations of any kind are people that are united by common causes. That includes businesses, governments, and so on. In order for us to survive, all of those causes are evolving towards something founded upon Agapic Love, and those that don’t will naturally fall away.

The imaginary “empires” of this world, built upon making people into idols and placing one over another, are finally coming to an end. Let’s do everything we can to make the transition as smooth as possible by trying to create things that work out of genuine love for others, rather than fighting against the things that don’t work out of a sense of hate. :purple_heart:

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Just responding to this because. yea. We have nudity in kids shows here (or have had at certain points), I don’t think casual nudity is bad in any space, basically. Even professionally you may go to a sauna with your coworkers – who cares?

I know my opinion is suspect because I’m an American, but I don’t want to see my coworkers naked/covered only by a towel nor have them see me in such a state. I prefer to keep a greater distance between coworkers and myself.

That’s fair! I absolutely get that, and parts of it can be awkward! But as long as you’re free to opt out I think it’s not bad if it’s an option! Honestly I’m mainly bitter about the way people feel so awkward about [not allowed to say this word, ironically, haha] sunbathing/“female presenting nipples” both irl in the area near me (compared to the 80s at least lol) and on the internet- it’s just frustrating that american standards are impacting my life whether I’m online or not…

They’re not even American standards. They’re the standards of the most backward and Puritanical among us. I’m no happier with the situation than you are.

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Fair point! My frame of reference is mainly online rules and regulations opposed to like… my grandma, haha

Then I say rebel against that! Shows us your nipples! :smile: I’m obviously joking but on a more serious note, it’s quite interesting how some views manage to become the default and the rest of the population has to live with them and there’s nothing they can do about it.

But I guess that’s another good thing about the open web: nobody can stop us from posting whatever we want on our sites. Including nipples!

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I show (metaphorically) moon people every time I post an opinion online. Shirtless selfies are pretty tame by comparison.

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